Walk into any classroom anytime of day and chances are the class will be in the middle of a discussion.
Led by the teacher, the dialogue will typically narrow to a predetermined conclusion. Sometimes an assignment will follow. Often, however, it will not.
—Because the goal was met: The students learned that Nazism is bad or that they really can use math when going to the grocery store.
It’s not that all discussion should be thrown out. It’s just that the proportion of it compared to actual work is too high.
The reason for this is that it feels like teaching. You’re up there doing your thing, pacing, talking loudly, in control. It’s also easy and appears from the outside as if you’re a good teacher.
It’s easy for students, too.
They’re passive, for the most part. Sure, those who always do well will be engaged. But for the rest, it’s easy to hide. It’s easy to daydream or pretend to follow along or predict where the discussion is going long before it ends.
On the whole, it doesn’t benefit them compared to what they could be spending their time on.
To improve academic skill, and all that that encompasses, discussion should be kept to a minimum. It should also be confined to a particular purpose.
If a group or class is meeting to make decisions about academic project work, then it’s smart and justified and part of learning how to work together toward a goal.
If it’s used as review, and all students might be called on rather than being able to volunteer, or if used as part of a Socratic seminar, then this too can be effective.
Otherwise, time is better spent teaching directed how-to lessons and then shifting responsibility to students to do work—reading, writing, solving, researching, studying, creating, diagramming, constructing, etc.
Effective teaching is about production. It’s about repetition and building skill upon skill to higher levels competency and confidence.
If you’re wondering about debate, and its place in the classroom, if done formally, it can be a great tool to help students express what they’ve learned and understand both sides of an issue. But too often it’s done lazily and haphazardly.
“Turn to a partner and talk about why Wilbur became friends with Charlotte.”
“Vote in your groups about whether your experiment was successful or not.”
“Who thinks the article was fair to the president, why or why not?”
These prompts and millions like them accomplish almost nothing. Virtually zero learning. Listen to your students as they discuss these soft queries. It’s cringe-inducing how little they understand and how far off track they go.
Debate only works if students research their ideas and back them up with arguments and evidence. They must be prepared by writing out position papers and having their ideas challenged or it’s a colossal waste of time.
In lieu of lazy discussion, take the same topic and turn it into real work that pushes and excites every student. Let them do it, which is far more fun and interesting.
Active learning. Involvement. Challenge. Responsibility. Discomfort. Preparation. Objective. Doing. Every directed lesson should provide the assignment and tools needed to succeed.
And then let them go, whether individually or in groups, to analyze the paragraph, solve the problem, conduct the experiment, research the topic, create the art, play the game, write the script, explore the mystery.
Get lost in learning.
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If not the discussions, what would this (Active learning) look like implemented in the classroom? Would you give me a few ideas please?
Let’s take Hitler. I love this part of the unit because I pose new perspectives. The world has labeled him evil, yet he mentions God in most of his speeches. He was also said to be a pretty nice guy in certain environments. Have students listen to a few speeches. Watch videos, research his childhood… there are so many ways you could “argue” that Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. What about the obstacles he faced before he became a spy? How did he even join the military when he was not eligible by citizenship?
Respectfully, this specific example is a terrible idea. Encouraging students to come up with a pro-Hitler opinion is, for hopefully obvious reasons, a terrible thing to encourage. It is not a perspective that deserves any attention or serious consideration.
I agree with Robert. Perhaps students may debate and argue the points about fracking or how we take care of our environment. But giving any level of validity to Hitler’s actions will glorify his existence; besides, it is not a safe lesson to have in the classroom.
I use a lot of discussion in my history class, particularly after having students complete cold reads of primary source texts, but I also cold-call by drawing random names. Students are held accountable in the grade book for an academic contribution to the discussion if called upon. I have found this practice to be a good formative assessment. We do end up at my predetermined points.
When I tried a similar strategy weekly with poetry in my ELA class, having changed little else of my pedagogy, my test scores in text analysis skyrocketed.
Discussion can be done well, and I think I have the data to prove it. However, I also respect the heck out of the writer of this blog, and would love to hear more thoughts. Maybe a Part II on how to do class discussion well next week?
Thank you for sharing! I’m very interested in knowing more about this: “Students are held accountable in the grade book for an academic contribution to the discussion if called upon.” Do you mean you keep a record of who answered your questions and they get a mark for participation/contribution? How do you do that? For example, do you have a system that runs in your class, take notes of their contribution on a sheet your have throughout the class, and/or do you give, say, 10% of the course mark to contribution? I am not 100% sure we can give participation marks at the board I work for (It will be reflected when I report their learning behaviors/work habits, but it won’t affect their marks and I can imagine some of them just don’t care), but I really think it will help students work harder during class. Love to know how it’s done in your class if you have the time to share further. Thank you!
Hi Crystal,
I don’t weight my grades, but I give every student a 20/20 at the beginning of each quarter for class discussions and other miscellaneous academic tasks. It’s their first grade of the quarter, and it can only go down. Students may lose two points per instance for the following reasons: Not contributing academically when called upon (I draw random names out of a stack of notecards), not contributing academically/being repeatedly off-task during group work, not completing bell work or other non-graded but expected work.
Most students lose 0-2 points throughout the quarter, but I have some students lose 8-10. When I see/hear something that deducts points, I do jot it down, and then I mark in the comment section of the grade book my rationale, as simple as, “George Washington Discussion March 14.”
I define academic contributions as any attempt to be on topic and that adds a new thought. For example, a student can’t say, “So-and-so said what I was going to say.” If they do, I will often give them some time to think and then come back to them later in the discussion. If a student says, “Yeah, I don’t know, I was thinking about soccer,” they just lose points.
Grades are only an incentive for students who care about them. If we continue to hold it in front of students like a carrot, this will not lead to true learning from curiosity. Our grades for students are subjective and, to be honest, quite meaningless. In the grand scheme of things, they don’t matter. So why not eliminate the looming shadow that grades cast on students and rather provide a space safe for all students to learn from intrigue and curiosity?
I agree! My students know the content, but fail the pre written tests because of the language and structure… but they can tell you, perform a task, etc.
I use popsicle sticks in a cup with student names on them to draw random names.
Crystal,
I would highly recommend against including participation into grades. Feedback (many times replaced by grades and points) should reflect how closely aligned students are to learning goals and/or standards – not on how well they are participating. How many students achieved an “A” bc s/he was simply just a good student who knew how to play the fame of school well? Our feedback should never bring shame to our students rather it should be meaningful and empowering.
Hi Bethany,
I am a new 6th grade ELA teacher. (I was literally handed this class in the middle of the first quarter because the school has a ridiculous shortage of teachers at present). I know this is a discussion regarding the above article but your message really caught my attention. I feel so helpless right now. I am drowning in all of the work involved in these two classes. I have NEVER taught an ELA class in my life.
Please excuse my directness but I would like to respectfully ask if you (and any other teacher reading these too), would be willing to give me a little advice, and a further explanation of your cold-call strategy approach. I’d also like some advice on lesson planning for ELA please? Most of the teachers in my school are also having to teach out of their normal classes so they don’t really have the time to help me. If you have a little time I can be reached at ydinva2@aol.com.
Thanks in advance, and if you can’t, I understand.
I totally agree with this article. Being a language teacher, I know that scaffolding/gradual release of responsibility is key and best practice. Student talk time vs. teacher talk time must be carefully calibrated and used wisely. Cooperative learning and inquiry based projects produce the best results!
I would love to have more ideas about how to do this type of learning with K-2 learners who are still working on communication basics. Thank you!
Thank you for this. Schools are in love with “turn and talk’ and cooperative learning. Very little support for individuals doing their own research.
In our district, all elementary and middle school teachers are required to use Turn and Talk in lesson planning, and principals note in evaluations whether or not they observed same. Most teachers are never rated Exemplary, unless part of a principal’s “clique” or to complete a designated percentage. To not have Needs Improvement, Turn and Talk, Teacher Table, Centers ad nauseum, …. must be evident at all times.
This is my district as well (HS). Just had an entire staff meeting on it last week. Teaching us to teach “active learning” the way they want it. Because the PhD’s now want to see more evidence of student engagement in the classroom. Complete nonsense. Kids that are not prepared and do no work on their own are supposed to turn and talk using academic language to other kids that do not pay attention or do any of the reading.
Sounds like you have just brainstormed a new book idea Michael.
“These prompts and millions like them accomplish almost nothing. Virtually zero learning. Listen to your students as they discuss these soft queries. It’s cringe-inducing how little they understand and how far off track they go.”
I agree with the opinions in this essay, especially for elementary students. However, discussion skills are valuable and necessary. So it’s important to model and structure opportunities for discussion as outlined later in this essay…”take the same topic and turn it into real work…..”
It is a huge reward for me when I observe students collaborate in a “successful,” fruitful discussion/task.
Turn and Talk and Centers where students obligingly share their errors were required in our schools. Teachers received “credit” if observed by admin when doing unscheduled observations, regardless of what students were discussing.
Teacher Table was required with a rotating schedule so every student could not be seen every day due to mandatory time constraints by admin. Teachers were to avoid labelling groups with names such as types of birds and instead use colors. It was assumed by admin that students couldn’t figure out the academic levels if colors were used.
If a teacher had a Center labeled “Debate,” with scripts and worksheets for pro and con, it was extolled as a “model” regardless of who authored the opinions the students read aloud or who composed the worksheets the students completed.
Later admin wanted to see composition paper in front of students and actively used during discussions. However, when admin observed blank sheets in front of students, and disciplined teachers for same in their evaluations, it never occurred to them that a student may have filled one side with notes and comments and then turned the paper over.
I have a special population of students riddled with social and general anxiety. I do a lot of discussion, but mostly querying them. The goal isn’t so much to generate brilliant ideas. My students generally refuse to speak. You can ask them if the sky is blue and be answered only by a vacant stare. No exaggeration.
So my focus is often on getting them to speak. I ask higher order thinking questions, cold call, and when they INVARIABLY say “I have it in my head but I don’t know how to say it….” That is where the learning starts. I have a few methods I use to prod them and some general encouragement — they practice self expression and critical thinking. To top it off, they get a “reward” of our PBIS “Toro Chip” which is part of a weekly raffle.
So discussion can be good if you’ve got a goal.
This is one reason why students fall behind in education. Boys especially are silent during their processing time so they can come up with a response they are comfortable with, while girls verbalise their thinking out loud. This gives teachers the impression that the silence means boys need prodding for a response or the discussion needs moving on. This disrupts boys’ thought processes so they just don’t bother and then find other stimulation leading to class disruption.
I’m looking for suggestions on how to implement this type of discussions in a year 1/2 and 2/3 classroom.
I’m looking for suggestions on how to implement this type of discussions in a year 1/2 and 2/3 classroom.
Thanks in advance
Once an undergrad – one particular professor assigned a book to read – individually. The book was rather lengthy but exciting. His objective was to assign the reading and then meet privately with him to answer random questions. In light of this, student were advised NOT to rely on Spark as a quick read. Why? clever or not when our turn to sit with him arrived he posed questions that were not even close to what Spark reveal online (I know this because in addition to reading the text, I also read what Spark published online). Needless to say, many failed his oral exam. Yours truly, read his assigned text; I passed with flying colors.
The moral to this rant: assign a reading to your class; give then an end date; then assign individual question-and-answer sessions as your next oral exam. Much can learned by both you (his/her teacher) and your students interruption of what they read. Comprehension and understanding, and quick analysis is what it’s all about. How much did your students digest and how quickly can that student respond to follow up questions.
Good luck!!
Ouch. This one hit home. This is definitely going to be my focus next year. 5 years in and I’m still green and growing.
Thanks again, Michael. Good stuff.
I agree, but I think it’s worth making a distinction between different types and uses of discussion. The first thing you describe isn’t so much a discussion as an interactive lecture, and I think you’re right that teachers overuse this because it feels to them like they are doing something. But telling is not teaching.
Students talking with each other is a different type of discussion, and I think it can be very useful. The quality and specificity of the prompt matter, though. It doesn’t seem like a great idea to have students share an opinion about something they don’t care about. But if I pair or group my 8th graders and give them a few minutes to find at least 3 examples of figurative language in the chapter they just read, then have the groups report out, they are amazed at how many instances the whole class finds in the work of an author whose writing doesn’t strike them as particularly flowery or ornate. Then I ask students what effect this language has on the reader, and a few share some good ideas. Then students might spend some individual work time rewriting a piece of their own, looking for places where figures of speech would be more effective than adjectives or adverbs.
What I describe is kind of a turn and talk (although I have students move, because I’m always trying to get them moving, and I think 3 students is usually better than 2), and it serves a few purposes. Most students feel accountable to each other for contributing something, so more of them are talking and thinking than if I just broadcast questions to the whole class. Also, it can help language learners when they hear their peers discussing a concept and examples — they get another opportunity to make sense of it. And it allows middle schoolers to be social and chatty in a way that supports their learning. For example, I might overhear a group discussing whether something is or is not a metaphor. They are working to clarify their understanding, and I can step in and help if needed.
But to your broader point, we should be intentional about how and when students are speaking, listening, reading, or writing (or observing, building, drawing, etc.), so that they are actively doing rather than passively absorbing (or tuning out). They should always be thinking!
Off topic, but I’m curious what questions y’all ask in end of year student surveys? I’m always looking to improve. I haven’t given surveys before & would love to hear some other motivated teacher’s thoughts. Thx!
When I walk into classrooms, they are usually silent. The teacher is doing some work at the desk and the students are staring at screens. I say discussion (any kind) would be a step up.
I see this, too, and have been lamenting the lack of discussion of late. So yes, group discussion would be a step up, for sure!
While I agree with the fact that lazy discussion leads students nowhere, I completely disagree with your statement that effective teaching is about production. That aligns with the same model we grew up with of being introduced to a mathematic algorithm, seeing an example, and then completing 20 of the same problems for homework. Providing busy work for our students shouldn’t be the goal.
I think the focus should be on what you said, “It’s cringe-inducing how little they understand and how far off track they go.” I wholeheartedly agree with this. Our students don’t know how to THINK. I actually do believe a very productive task tied in with a well facilitated discussion can be effective. However, many teachers don’t know how to facilitate and delegate – many only know how to spoon feed.
I highly recommend the book titled “Building Thinking Classrooms in Mathematics.” Although this book focuses on mathematics, much of it can be translated into all classrooms. This has completely changed my views on how one can effectively get students to become self-directed learners. It provides educators with very practical tips – radical, yes – but the results are undeniable.
Yes! Great book!
Second (third?) this book! An excellent read, and I’m an ELA teacher taking away tons from a math book.
I see the point that frivolous or meandering discussion may not be the most effective method to learn and grow skills, but there are other purposes that need careful consideration as well, purposes such as student relatedness/belonging, retrieval practice strategies, and more.
Where time can very easily be wasted with unproductive discussion, I could not disagree more with the end point that there ought to be less discussion. There ought instead to be more effective, focused, and structured discussion. The educator who masters this will invariably observe higher engagement, greater student ownership, and yes, will produce more learning. I believe the preponderance of evidence supports this as well, and for reference, start with John Hattie’s list to get some reference points, then start reading everything under the sun on learning sciences and researched teaching and learning strategies. Student discussion/sharing is one of those undercurrents that reappears constantly.
Michael, it is interesting that a few blogs ago you were pushing daily oral reading by the teacher and you were very definite that the students listening do only that—listen. No analysis, no feedback. I didn’t agree with that view as the teacher cannot see if any worthwhile learning is happening as the class is passive. Now it seems in this blog, discussion on an important topic should be limited and pupils should get down to written work. The two views don’t seem to fit together.
Oh yes It is very important. It’s helpful for students to hear good expression while oral reading. It gives them a chance to listen to books they might have not read otherwise. You can pick a book on a topic you’re currently studying, historical, geography etc. If there’s something you specifically want them to learn you can stop and teach it to them. Reading aloud to them is beneficial in more ways than that. Your whole class is listening to the same book and it brings them together. It’s neat to hear them talking about the story you’re reading them.